1
Introductions / Re: Hello from Baltimore
« on: September 26, 2020, 08:41:24 PM »
Welcome to Fintail.org! Great job on getting the engine running again. I wish you the same success in the transmission work.
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2
Parts / Re: Parts For Sale Elsewhere
« on: September 20, 2020, 01:06:36 AM »
Very nice W111 sedan front bumper for only $150. https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/pts/d/portland-mercedes-w111-fintail-front/7198555771.html
3
Progress / Re: 220Sb project fail
« on: September 13, 2020, 11:59:17 AM »Car has been sold complete (buyer wanted for a manual trans conversion). Thanks to those who expressed interest and purchased parts.
I saw the car in the Facebook group!
4
Fintails / Re: Swing Axle Boot Replacement Tools
« on: August 21, 2020, 02:31:05 PM »You don't need a harness- you can use your w110.You need the jumper/ adapter for USA style stacked headlights- but a better plan would be a set of euro headlights which doesn't require it. You may need to jumper from terminal 56b to N on your headlamp switch to activate the fogs. That should be "it".
Is the W110 harness really long enough to reach the extra length of the W111 fenders? The length was my biggest concern, though I thought it possible the wires might be different, too. If so, that would be great. I will be using Euro headlights.
5
Progress / Re: Saving A 1965 W111 220
« on: August 09, 2020, 03:01:00 AM »
Thinking more on this, a 5 speed transmission seems impractical, because as I was comparing the stock 4 speed against a 5 speed, I noticed that the shift levers on the transmission are in very different locations, and that the 5 speed has one more shift lever than the 4 speed, thus making it a potential engineering nightmare to get to work with the column shifter on top of the likely high cost of purchasing one.
Stock 4 speed:
Getrag 5 speed:
Finding a way to regear a swing axle lower than 3.27 seems unrealistic, as well. The only reasonable thing seems to be using larger wheels. However, finding steel wheels that will take dog dish hubcaps even with a little tweaking seems like it will be an expensive or time-consuming endeavor.
I was looking at gear ratios again and realized that power may be lost to the rear wheels with an automatic transmission, which is what my 300SD has. I factored this in using an engine RPM calculator and got the following results:
W116 300SD with OM617 turbo engine, 1:1 automatic transmission, 195/75R14 (25.5" diameter) tires, and 3.07 differential: 2,907 RPM @ 70 MPH
W111 220 with OM617 turbo engine, 1:1 manual transmission, 195/75R14 (25.5" diameter) tires, and 3.27 differential: 3,016 RPM @ 70 MPH
I am happy with the acceleration and performance of my 300SD. At one point I had considered swapping out the 3.07 differential with a 2.88 or 2.47, but I am glad I didn't, because when the air conditioning is on it bogs down the engine noticeably. I'd also hate to lose the peppiness.
Factoring in the estimated slippage of the automatic transmission, it seems both cars will have similar engine RPM at 70 MPH. I suppose that's good enough for me, and I shouldn't put much more thought into this. It's certainly an improvement over 3,885 RPM @ 70 MPH using the stock 4.08 differential and 185/80R13 (24.7" diameter) tires. The W111 weighs less than the W116, and even after converting it to a wagon, it will weigh 430 lbs less, give or take a few pounds for the extra weight of the diesel engine.
A person in Sweden installed a naturally aspirated OM617 into a W111 with the factory 4.08 differential and 13" tires, but using the automatic transmission which came with the engine (and I assume has a final gear of 1:1, adjust for slippage). He claimed that at 56 MPH the engine was screaming and running out of RPM. That seems a bit hard to swallow (perhaps the transmission was slipping badly or not shifting into 4th gear?), but I hope that by using a 3.27 differential and 14" wheels it will make for a comfortable freeway cruiser.
I'm trying to build a car that isn't stock, but has a stock appearance. Actually, adding on to this, I remember the last set of tires I had on my 300SD were 185/70R14, which were smaller than the tires on it now by 1.3"--which would have made it run at 157 RPM higher @ 70 MPH than it does now (3,064 vs 2,907 RPM), and it was perfectly acceptable. And here I was worrying about turning 3,016 RPM @ 70 MPH with my W111, which is less than my 300SD was turning. So, a 3.27 rear axle and 14" wheels should be sufficient.
Stock 4 speed:
Getrag 5 speed:
Finding a way to regear a swing axle lower than 3.27 seems unrealistic, as well. The only reasonable thing seems to be using larger wheels. However, finding steel wheels that will take dog dish hubcaps even with a little tweaking seems like it will be an expensive or time-consuming endeavor.
I was looking at gear ratios again and realized that power may be lost to the rear wheels with an automatic transmission, which is what my 300SD has. I factored this in using an engine RPM calculator and got the following results:
W116 300SD with OM617 turbo engine, 1:1 automatic transmission, 195/75R14 (25.5" diameter) tires, and 3.07 differential: 2,907 RPM @ 70 MPH
W111 220 with OM617 turbo engine, 1:1 manual transmission, 195/75R14 (25.5" diameter) tires, and 3.27 differential: 3,016 RPM @ 70 MPH
I am happy with the acceleration and performance of my 300SD. At one point I had considered swapping out the 3.07 differential with a 2.88 or 2.47, but I am glad I didn't, because when the air conditioning is on it bogs down the engine noticeably. I'd also hate to lose the peppiness.
Factoring in the estimated slippage of the automatic transmission, it seems both cars will have similar engine RPM at 70 MPH. I suppose that's good enough for me, and I shouldn't put much more thought into this. It's certainly an improvement over 3,885 RPM @ 70 MPH using the stock 4.08 differential and 185/80R13 (24.7" diameter) tires. The W111 weighs less than the W116, and even after converting it to a wagon, it will weigh 430 lbs less, give or take a few pounds for the extra weight of the diesel engine.
A person in Sweden installed a naturally aspirated OM617 into a W111 with the factory 4.08 differential and 13" tires, but using the automatic transmission which came with the engine (and I assume has a final gear of 1:1, adjust for slippage). He claimed that at 56 MPH the engine was screaming and running out of RPM. That seems a bit hard to swallow (perhaps the transmission was slipping badly or not shifting into 4th gear?), but I hope that by using a 3.27 differential and 14" wheels it will make for a comfortable freeway cruiser.
I'm trying to build a car that isn't stock, but has a stock appearance. Actually, adding on to this, I remember the last set of tires I had on my 300SD were 185/70R14, which were smaller than the tires on it now by 1.3"--which would have made it run at 157 RPM higher @ 70 MPH than it does now (3,064 vs 2,907 RPM), and it was perfectly acceptable. And here I was worrying about turning 3,016 RPM @ 70 MPH with my W111, which is less than my 300SD was turning. So, a 3.27 rear axle and 14" wheels should be sufficient.
6
Progress / Re: Saving A 1965 W111 220
« on: August 08, 2020, 09:23:34 PM »
I've been figuring out what to do regarding the gearing. I was under the impression that the fintails had transmissions that were geared taller than later cars, and rear axles that were geared lower. But, apparently the only difference is a lower geared rear axle.
The factory specs show that a W111 230S Universal (which is what this car will be after I convert it to a wagon) has a curb weight of 3,351 lbs. My W116 300SD which has an OM617 engine (which is the type going into this fintail) weighs 3,781 lbs, a difference of 430 lbs. When you factor in the extra weight from the diesel engine that will be going into it, they should be fairly close in weight.
Both the W111 and my W116 have a 1:1 4th gear. Both are similar weight, and will have the same size 195/75R14 tires. The W111 has a 4.08 rear axle, and the W116 has a 3.07 rear axle. BIG difference! The OM617 would likely be screaming at freeway speeds in the W111 if it can even get there.
I definitely plan on installing a 3.27 rear axle from a W108 4.5. That will get things closer, but that would be a difference of roughly 200 RPM between what it is in my 300SD. A rough estimate would be running 3000 RPM at 70 MPH vs 2800 RPM in my 300SD. But, that's a huge improvement over 3800 RPM using the stock 4.08 rear axle and the 185/80R13 tires (which would be like driving my 300SD at 95 MPH). I'll save 800 RPM installing the 3.27 rear axle and slightly taller than stock diameter tires on 14" wheels.
The stock tire size on my wagon is 178/90R15, which are monsters. That equates to about a 195/80R15 modern tire size. Unfortunately, it no longer has the original 15" wheels; just some 14" W115 wheels. I have an opportunity to buy the original 15" wheels, but don't have $2,000 to do it right now. That would actually bring the RPMS down to match my 300SD.
There was a company in Germany called Mefro which was making 5-6" wide 15" and 16" steel wheels in the correct ET30 offset and 5X112 bolt pattern which would have been perfect. I could have bought a set of 5 for about $344.75 and then added the tabs for mounting dog dish hubcaps and also put on trim rings. Unfortunately, they stopped making them recently. Maddening.
I found that part number 2024000002 is the Mercedes equivalent of the 15X6" ET30 Mefro wheels. They are cheap and abundant--except for within the USA. They are practically non-existent in this country. They are also no longer available from Mercedes, but were only about $60 each back when they were.
Those have been superseded by 2034000002, and they are still available and cheap at about $65 each. But, they have a goofy shape that won't work for putting dog dish hubcaps on them.
So, I might be able to get to an acceptable engine RPM range simply by swapping out the 4.08 rear axle for a 3.27 and the 185/80R13 tires for 195/75R14's. I plan on this to be a daily driver that makes multi-state trips, so I want to be sure it does fine driving on the freeway for hours on end.
If not, I have to consider how else to lower the engine RPM. Using wheels larger than 14" was one option. I am also considering putting in a Getrag 5 speed manual transmission, as it seems that it would work with a column shifter due to the levers being located on the side. Those have an overdrive 5th gear of 0.81. That would essentially bring the 3.27 rear axle down to a 2.65, and would bring the engine RPM from 3000 to 2400 RPM at 70 MPH.
That might actually be too steep, but would allow me to use a more common 3.46 W108 rear axle, as it would effectively make it a 2.80. It would then only be turning 2500 RPM at 70 MPH. In reality, the expense might be too much. Even though I used to own a Getrag 5 speed, I have a feeling I might not be able to buy another one for the price I got out of the one I sold. There is a 6 speed manual available for the SL, but they are insanely expensive and they wouldn't work with a column shift.
Another thought was seeing if I could have a custom ring and pinion gear set made for the swing axle, or figure out how to get the gear set from a W116, W123, W126, etc. to fit. Where there's a will, there's a way.
The project is far from being finished, and at the moment I'm not in a position to where I can spend money on it, but I want to plan it out now and see what parts I need to acquire before they are impossible to find and exorbitantly priced. It would be great if swapping out to a 3.27 rear axle and 14" wheels is good enough, because I already have the wheels and a line on a cheap rear axle.
The factory specs show that a W111 230S Universal (which is what this car will be after I convert it to a wagon) has a curb weight of 3,351 lbs. My W116 300SD which has an OM617 engine (which is the type going into this fintail) weighs 3,781 lbs, a difference of 430 lbs. When you factor in the extra weight from the diesel engine that will be going into it, they should be fairly close in weight.
Both the W111 and my W116 have a 1:1 4th gear. Both are similar weight, and will have the same size 195/75R14 tires. The W111 has a 4.08 rear axle, and the W116 has a 3.07 rear axle. BIG difference! The OM617 would likely be screaming at freeway speeds in the W111 if it can even get there.
I definitely plan on installing a 3.27 rear axle from a W108 4.5. That will get things closer, but that would be a difference of roughly 200 RPM between what it is in my 300SD. A rough estimate would be running 3000 RPM at 70 MPH vs 2800 RPM in my 300SD. But, that's a huge improvement over 3800 RPM using the stock 4.08 rear axle and the 185/80R13 tires (which would be like driving my 300SD at 95 MPH). I'll save 800 RPM installing the 3.27 rear axle and slightly taller than stock diameter tires on 14" wheels.
The stock tire size on my wagon is 178/90R15, which are monsters. That equates to about a 195/80R15 modern tire size. Unfortunately, it no longer has the original 15" wheels; just some 14" W115 wheels. I have an opportunity to buy the original 15" wheels, but don't have $2,000 to do it right now. That would actually bring the RPMS down to match my 300SD.
There was a company in Germany called Mefro which was making 5-6" wide 15" and 16" steel wheels in the correct ET30 offset and 5X112 bolt pattern which would have been perfect. I could have bought a set of 5 for about $344.75 and then added the tabs for mounting dog dish hubcaps and also put on trim rings. Unfortunately, they stopped making them recently. Maddening.
I found that part number 2024000002 is the Mercedes equivalent of the 15X6" ET30 Mefro wheels. They are cheap and abundant--except for within the USA. They are practically non-existent in this country. They are also no longer available from Mercedes, but were only about $60 each back when they were.
Those have been superseded by 2034000002, and they are still available and cheap at about $65 each. But, they have a goofy shape that won't work for putting dog dish hubcaps on them.
So, I might be able to get to an acceptable engine RPM range simply by swapping out the 4.08 rear axle for a 3.27 and the 185/80R13 tires for 195/75R14's. I plan on this to be a daily driver that makes multi-state trips, so I want to be sure it does fine driving on the freeway for hours on end.
If not, I have to consider how else to lower the engine RPM. Using wheels larger than 14" was one option. I am also considering putting in a Getrag 5 speed manual transmission, as it seems that it would work with a column shifter due to the levers being located on the side. Those have an overdrive 5th gear of 0.81. That would essentially bring the 3.27 rear axle down to a 2.65, and would bring the engine RPM from 3000 to 2400 RPM at 70 MPH.
That might actually be too steep, but would allow me to use a more common 3.46 W108 rear axle, as it would effectively make it a 2.80. It would then only be turning 2500 RPM at 70 MPH. In reality, the expense might be too much. Even though I used to own a Getrag 5 speed, I have a feeling I might not be able to buy another one for the price I got out of the one I sold. There is a 6 speed manual available for the SL, but they are insanely expensive and they wouldn't work with a column shift.
Another thought was seeing if I could have a custom ring and pinion gear set made for the swing axle, or figure out how to get the gear set from a W116, W123, W126, etc. to fit. Where there's a will, there's a way.
The project is far from being finished, and at the moment I'm not in a position to where I can spend money on it, but I want to plan it out now and see what parts I need to acquire before they are impossible to find and exorbitantly priced. It would be great if swapping out to a 3.27 rear axle and 14" wheels is good enough, because I already have the wheels and a line on a cheap rear axle.
7
Mechanical / Re: Power window, w111 4-door limousine
« on: August 04, 2020, 03:20:27 PM »
You could probably do it with parts from a W108/W109 sedan. I think it might have been a super rare option. I'm pretty sure there is another member on here who had planned to do the conversion on a W111 sedan.
8
Fintails / Re: Swing Axle Boot Replacement Tools
« on: July 24, 2020, 01:16:11 AM »um, which car did you want a wire harness for exactly? -CTH
I need a wire harness for a 1966-1968 W111 sedan at some point. I'm going to be converting my 1967 W110 wagon into a W111 wagon, but the wire harness going to the headlights of the 1965 W111 donor body I have was cut, so I can't use the headlight portion of it anymore--and then I don't know if it would have worked out so well anyway, since they changed the style of connectors in 1966.
9
Fintails / Re: Swing Axle Boot Replacement Tools
« on: July 14, 2020, 03:36:07 PM »
Thanks for tip! The first time I did it, I just unbolted the bracket and let the spring shoot out. That was on a car I was parting out and I was excited to be getting $10 for the compensating spring... I also sold the complete wire harness for $50 and felt like maybe I was gouging the buyer. Wish I had it now.
10
Fintails / Swing Axle Boot Replacement Tools
« on: July 13, 2020, 10:28:09 PM »
Goody, goody, gumdrop! I plan on replacing the rear axle boot on my roommate's 1965 W111 220S, and he got a great deal on these special genuine Mercedes swing axle boot replacement tools. One is boot staple pliers, part number 111-589-06-37-00, and the others are two spring compressors for removing the central compensating spring to access the boot, part number 111-589-00-31-00.
11
Vehicles / Re: W112 in ABQ
« on: July 03, 2020, 01:03:56 AM »That's sadI think I bought mine too early. I'm still working on it, and it finally started running
Do you have the owner's contact info? If he's parting out, I'd love to pick up some parts.The price isn't bad when you compare it to this Santa Fe car...
https://santafe.craigslist.org/cto/d/santa-fe-1965-mercedes-benz-220seb/7136917129.html
-CTH
That's a lot of badges! And some scary rust. Nice interior, though. Meanwhile, there's a guy in Washington with a running, rust-free 220SE and he can't even get $1,000 for it, so he's going to part it out.
That's great to hear! You can contact him through his website https://www.turntablerestorations.com/ , but the car is way too nice to part out. It runs and needs a title (easy) and transmission work (difficult, but the price is right). I'd buy it from him and then flip it if I had the money just to save it.
12
Mechanical / Re: Clips for wiring loom / hood release cable
« on: July 03, 2020, 12:52:52 AM »
Apparently it was superseded by 1119880178, however it seems both are no longer available from Mercedes.
13
Mechanical / Re: Clips for wiring loom / hood release cable
« on: July 03, 2020, 12:46:21 AM »
I think this is it. Part number 0019882078. I could be wrong. https://www.authenticclassics.com/Double-ended-Clip-fits-Mercedes-110-111Ch-p/auth-006676.htm
14
Mechanical / Re: Which W108 Swing Axle Has The Best Ratio For Use In A W111?
« on: July 01, 2020, 12:39:32 AM »
I checked my roommate's 1965 W111 220S and my 1965 W111 220, and they both have 4.08 rear axles. If I get a rear axle from an air suspension car, is there any reason why I can't install the gear set into a spring suspension axle? For example, swapping a W109 gear set into a W108 axle?
I think we're going to keep the stock setup in my roommate's 1965 W111 220S. The pinion seal leaks and the boot is aging, so I'll probably replace those. But my 1965 W111 220 is going to get an OM617 5 cylinder turbo diesel engine, and the gearing on the cars they came in ranged from 2.88 to 3.07, so I'll want something more appropriate to the engine.
I think we're going to keep the stock setup in my roommate's 1965 W111 220S. The pinion seal leaks and the boot is aging, so I'll probably replace those. But my 1965 W111 220 is going to get an OM617 5 cylinder turbo diesel engine, and the gearing on the cars they came in ranged from 2.88 to 3.07, so I'll want something more appropriate to the engine.
15
Vehicles / Re: W112 in ABQ
« on: June 29, 2020, 09:38:25 PM »The price isn't bad when you compare it to this Santa Fe car...
https://santafe.craigslist.org/cto/d/santa-fe-1965-mercedes-benz-220seb/7136917129.html
-CTH
That's a lot of badges! And some scary rust. Nice interior, though. Meanwhile, there's a guy in Washington with a running, rust-free 220SE and he can't even get $1,000 for it, so he's going to part it out.